recollecters: (Default)
Recollé Mods ([personal profile] recollecters) wrote in [community profile] recallings2017-06-02 09:17 pm
Entry tags:

REGARDING AC CHANGES AND THE GAME GOING FORWARD

Hello everyone,

We have taken all of your concerns into account and hopefully this post will help clear things up in regards to our new AC, why we are implementing it, and how the game will proceed moving forward.



Why the increase in AC?

As mods, we have spoken back and forth about increasing the AC in the hopes of helping to encourage players to carry on longer threads, engage with the setting and each other further and have a stronger impact on the world. Several of you have already been going above and beyond the AC requirements as is, as pointed out, and we would like to change this standard going forward.

As with several other mechanics of the game (regains, for example) we had set standards prior to the game opening and went back to the table after reviewing the game's progress over the last three months. Upon reviewing the game's overall activity, and our vision for the game, we felt that increasing the standard was in line with our overall goals.

If we're already going above and beyond AC requirements, why the increase?

With several plots in the pipelines, and the overall direction of the game, we want to ensure that players in-game are getting what they want out of the game rather than simply being present, so to speak. With Recollé heavily relying on player engagement and regains, we wish to set a standard in order to be able to shape the game, events, and impacting portions more effectively based on what you guys are playing out. Having a higher standard, in theory, will allow for further opportunities and variety in CR and character development.

Doesn't adding 10 extra comments mean losing 10 bonus points potentially?

In theory, you're correct about that. After reviewing several of the concerns on the mod post, and the plurk itself, we have revised this as well.

For any proof that you turn in with a new person/a person you did not use for your AC the month prior, we will be more than happy to grant you your bonus points for these comments.

So, for example:

JUNE AC
Passing AC would be 10 comments with A, 5 comments with B and 5 comments with C.

You would be able to earn your bonus points for your threads with B+C

JULY AC
Passing AC would be a post with 10 network comments from you, 5 comments from D and 5 comments from C again.

You would be unable to earn bonus points for your thread with C, but you would still pass AC and be able to claim the extra points for your thread with D.

Turning in AC with different people each month will not be necessary, but we would like to reward players who go the extra mile, so to speak. You could turn in your AC of 20 comments with the same two people month after month but the additional bonus points from your second proof of 10 will not be applied.

So, bottom line:

1 network post with ten comments from you (can only be one of your proofs, the second must be comments)
1 log post with 5 comments from you (can only be one of your proofs, the second must be comments)
1 10 (or more) comment thread (network or log)
2 threads that equal a minimum of ten comments (network or log)
4 threads that equal a minimum of 20 comments (network or log)

These are your qualifying proofs, of which two must be applied. Your first proof will not be eligible for bonus points at all. However, your second proof (which must be comments only), whether it be a thread of 10 comments or two threads that make up 10, will be eligible for bonus points as well if the people involved in these threads differ from the month prior.

We will not be punishing players for turning in AC with the same people, but we may reach out to you if we notice it is a repetitive pattern.

I'm having trouble getting my threads to AC-qualifying lengths.

After review, we are fine with any combination of at least two threads but no more than four that are equal to 20 comments.

For example:

JUNE AC
Passing AC would be a 15 comment thread from A and a five comment thread from B

JULY AC
PASSING AC would be a 13 comment thread from C and an 8 comment thread from D

Your comment total does not need to add up exactly to 20 for your AC. If you are solely turning in threads, it just needs to be a minimum of 20.

What's this about mandatory memory regains?

With the nature of the game, the direction the game is moving, the opportunities we have in store for the game's overarching plot and the new regains clarification guide we have created, we feel that being able to pull off one regain a month is doable.

Our regain standards will be clarified and a touch less stringent to aid in this as well. On the whole, with one regain being mandatory a month that is 12 regains in a year. These regains do not have to be large, but as regains aid the overall plot we feel having this standard set is a change necessary for the game.

That said, we understand that sometimes there are bad months, sometimes it's harder to trigger regains, etc. Please keep in mind as well that these regains do not need to be large or impactful and you can still go at the rate that you wish to go with your character development. However, we will still require a regain to be in place and failure to do so will result in a strike. Please see below for how we are aiding the regains process.

Starting in July we guarantee there will be a monthly opportunity to qualify for a freebie regain in various ways to also help ease this requirement. This may be "tagging someone new" or "threading for this amount of comments", both of which can also be used to apply for bonus points.

I don't know how to trigger regains.

We will continue providing opportunities to acquire freebie regains, which can count toward this! We hope that having the guide explaining our regains process, plus freebie opportunities, will help ease into being able to pull off regains naturally.

Why wasn't the guide already finished?

Our apologies on that as well. The timing was misjudged and this is why our personal goal was to finish the guide to be released at the time of this clarification message, allowing for a majority of June to be used to answer questions and clarify what's written in the guide.

I play from a short canon/my character is more minor. What about when I run out of stuff to regain?

If you hit a point in which you run out of memories to regain, please notify us and you will be qualified to skip that portion of your AC going forward.

What about freebie regains?

Moving forward, we're going to continue the system of "tag someone new, qualify for a regain" in order to basically self-feed the system of threading with new people and being able to build CR while snagging free memories. July's event, for example, will allow the chance for up to three free memory regains. In the event of off-months (i.e. months without mod logs, etc.) this may become a qualifier of simply threading for a certain amount of comments in general. We will be reviewing various options month to month.

What about new CR/being able to carry out threads long enough?

Going off of the feedback from plurk, we will be implementing more effects that allow for unlikely CR, such as our text misfires. On the non-event months we try to have player plots slotted to help mingle characters of all ages together, or if there are not player plots then we try to throw something together for all ages such as the water balloon log from April. We will be looking to increase these sort of opportunities moving forward as well.

I play from a canon that's very complicated and my character has a lot of high-end powers. What about earning back these abilities in a reasonable amount of time?

We are always willing to discuss bulk-pricing with you guys and split up your abilities/powers/appearances/whatever into fair chunks of points since we do understand it can be rather daunting with such a high amount of points.

As the game moves on, we will be looking into opportunities to allow for more points especially as the metaplot kicks in. As of right now, the reason we have the rubric set the way it is is solely for the game's pacing.

What would be fair to you as a playerbase in this case? An increase in points value? Something else? Let's chat it out, see what works.

The world regains look great, but why didn't you fill in what the buybacks are?

Mostly because we're still working on it. It's never been our intention to just leave the buyback amounts to something mysterious and we are still working on actually laying out the groundwork for what these items are.

Characters ICly are unaware that there are points being used, but we can revise the way world regains are done with a system such as characters receiving a survey that says "would you like to vote for allowing x to happen", with x being one of the incentives and going from there.

As always, bonus points are just that. Bonus! You are free to use them as you wish.

If we're not using bonus points for world regains and are applying them to our own personal regains, how are we fixing the world?

There will be other plot opportunities utilizing player action that may help with this as well, including meeting objectives as a group as a whole to aid the return of a world element.

We have read everyone's comments in the plurk and in this post and we have tried to respond as thoroughly as possible. Please utilize this post for further questions, and we hope this helps clear things up.

Thank you.
true_noir: (Hmmm)

[personal profile] true_noir 2017-06-03 04:32 am (UTC)(link)
hoo boy, bit of reading there. Thank you guys.

Just want to clarify and be clear. Starting in July, the AC Requirements would be:

1) 2 Proofs from the following List
1 network post with ten comments from you
1 log post with 5 comments from you
1 10 (or more) comment thread (network or log)
2 threads that equal a minimum of ten comments (network or log)
2) One Memory Regain

"Different CR" is not required, but incentivized by allowing people to use bonus points from AC proofs if they use different CR from the previous month.

-------------

Do I have that right?
true_noir: (Smile2)

[personal profile] true_noir 2017-06-03 04:41 am (UTC)(link)
*thumbs up* ok, I've read it correctly for the most part. Thank you. And thank you for listening to some of the players' concerns in your discussions.
accordance: all by <user name="feonixe"> (Default)

[personal profile] accordance 2017-06-03 05:01 am (UTC)(link)
Hello mods! Thank you for your help in clarifying things. The mod posts + the new regain guide is also a lot easier to read, even on mobile.

I used to play in a game with a similar memloss theme, and a points system was also put in place to regain abilities as well as items. Their AC bank post is here, for reference. When I played there, I could make 100 log tags a month, and be able to use those points to regain one major part of my character's ability per month. I played a character who was transforming into a non-human, and the mods worked with me so his transformation would have visible increments every month, which let me pace out his character development reasonably without having to force myself to tag above my limit.

I think what could be improved for characters with complicated abilities is to scale the regain cost proportionate to the amount of stuff they could regain, as opposed to upping the point count per tag. For example, if a character only has a few abilities to regain, what would be reasonable is to price them the amount that can be reached in one month per ability. I'm seeing quotes of 100-200 points floating around plurk. That's enough to regain a unique eye colour or a single minor skill as with the current system. As a result their 'regain arc' can be played out in 3-4 months, which is the average I'm seeing so far.

However, this would work only with characters who have a small amount of things to regain. For more complicated characters this would stretch out their regain arc to a lot longer. To use my character as an example, it would take me about 5-6 months to work out the points to regain his non-human physiology, as it was priced at 900+ points and I can only reach about 200 points per month. And this is not taking into account his other abilities that may be useful or interesting to have in the future, which are quoted at 300-400 points each. If we were able to scale the non-human status regain down to about 2 months, it would give me more things to play with, as I fall into the trap of playing both a complicated character (thus delayed regains) as well as a character who is not network-active. As a result most of my threads fall into a similar occupational pattern without regains being brought up or played with, as I am not able to tag fast enough to get the points. Thus I feel that I am 'falling behind' due to my character choice.

I understand that the playerbase does have players who are able to boomerang and network tag to over 400 points a month, but this is not reachable for a good part of the other players as well. By implementing regain scaling to activity, we would be able to help the slower players and not restrict them to apping/playing characters who have more easily-bought regains. To prevent abuse of this system, we can put in scaling only after perhaps two AC periods, so that the player can get settled in (lessens the possibility of dropping) and the mods have a reasonable grasp on the player's capability for tagging.

Thank you for your time! I hope you can consider my suggestion.
Edited 2017-06-03 05:06 (UTC)
gudaguda: (Default)

+1

[personal profile] gudaguda 2017-06-03 05:26 am (UTC)(link)
I'd like to second these comments as I feel the AC rewards a certain archetype of character over others. I myself play a character who is a historical figure and has a great deal of magical elements, and I feel personally I would be having many low impact regains such as SOL memories and small canon items to fill AC. With my projected tagging speed (which takes account time zones, I'd probably reach 100 comments a month), I feel like my regain arc - like Eon's would be much longer and more strenuous to reach due to things like complicated physiology and personal skills.

accordance: all by <user name="feonixe"> (Default)

[personal profile] accordance 2017-06-03 01:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I thought up something that might solve the crux of the issue, which is that characters with more complicated physiology will lose out in the long run. However I also understand that by reducing prices, people with faster tagging ability may also overbuy and/or cause unfairness.

In these suggestions I will use my character as an example, you can find his skills section here for reference.

For addressing characters that are very complicated:
Since the list of the abilities are reflected when the characters are apped in, we can count how many they are based on a glance, and then plot for a 2-4 month time frame to regain the major abilities that define their role in their homeworld. If we can spend about 100-150 points for the 'crucial pieces', we would have more fun playing our character and being engaged with the setting using the regained stuff.

For my character, that will include his non-human physiology, wings, as well as perhaps the energy construction skill, as they are tied to his original identity and will be involved in regained memories. For other not so important stuff like crystal stasis and divination, which are difficult to play with in the game, they can be priced as they are now in order to keep gamebreaking abilities from being too easy to get.

We can reduce the mod workload involved in this by having players explain why a particular ability will qualify for the importance discount, and mods can read over to make their decision.

For addressing slower players:
My suggestion is to have a 'discounted' option for ability/major buybacks, for the players who manage less than 100 points a month (4 action tags a day). We can have it available after their second AC period here, to prevent abuse of it early on + let the player settle in to the game. A player would, once per month, be able to use only 75 points to purchase an ability that would otherwise be in the more expensive categories, which will let them play with said ability regained in the next month. This would let us pace our regain arc reasonably, and if we are able, use the leftover points to buy some small items.

AC is currently 20 comments, so 100 comments, which is 5x AC, will average out to be 75 points including a mix of action and network. I think that should be a reasonable amount.

To use Lord Light as an example:

Currently:
Joined game in March.
Nothing could be bought back for April since there weren't enough points.
May: Regain wings
June: Regain flight. The plotting possibilities for this regain overlap largely with the wings regained in May, thus getting 'new stuff' out of it is not so easy.
July: If I can hit 240 points, buy back his physiology. But this is assuming I spend a huge amount of time tagging this game, as this amount would require me to hit 270-300 tags, which works out to 10 tags a day, every day. My timezone does not fall into the American timezone, which pretty much puts boomeranging out of the window. I also play a character who is not invested in the network, so gathering enough CR to even hit this amount is taxing for me.

Suggested version:
Joined game in March.
April: Eyes that change colour when he displays emotions (as a part of his Glamour skill). This is a very small change and would fall into 100 bracket without discount, and can be bought with points accumulated in March.
Discount becomes available after April AC closes.
May: Wings, bought with discount, using April points.
June: Special physiology
July: Light generation OR Energy construction (nerfed to be minor but still playable)

This way, each month will have a regained ability that can be used to plot with. This may not be too much of an issue for characters who are outgoing, but for adult characters who have a IC working life, our plotting possibilities are reduced.

Examples of the dual system in action
A player runs a large player plot for the month. They have a lot of points because of this. They can use the 'importance allowance' to buy back a major regain, and then use the 'monthly discount' to buy back another ability. This can be a major ability or a minor ability.

A player has regained every single major regain, or wishes to put off major regains due to character development issues. However there are still some minor abilities, e.g. their characters sparkling when they enter water/go swimming. They can still use the 'monthly discount' to buy it back if their tagging speed is not so fast.

Basically, the two options are not mutually exclusive.
Edited (whoa, i can words) 2017-06-03 14:27 (UTC)
fashioneebo: (Stuck on my heart)

[personal profile] fashioneebo 2017-06-03 09:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd like to +1 this and suggest the discount also helps out characters who have extremely expensive bulk pricing (1000 or more points to get a set of skills back). It's a major concern I've seen that people who want to get back a certain set of abilities/skills back, they will never be able to because of how expensive the bulk pricing is, even though it's cheaper than buying them individually. If this kind of character sticks around in the game for a year, they will always be behind another character who's been around the same time.
Edited 2017-06-03 21:19 (UTC)
openhanded: (animated) (Default)

you should just start ignoring these edits at this point

[personal profile] openhanded 2017-06-03 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)
ETA: The mods just got back to me about purchasing skills in tinier bundles at a time, so it seems like they're working on that. I don't know if that means it'll be a bit looser on, say, pokemon-- but for me, 2-3 skills at a time is much more doable. There's no reason why anyone should have to do three thousand tags at minimum to get basic abilities and I'm sure other people feel the same way.

I have no idea if this is going to be gated based on plot, but it might be.

My original comment follows below:

----------------------

I've already contacted the mods about this (still waiting on a response), but I do like some of the suggestions you've outlined here. After looking at Silver's suggestion though I like that a little bit more though, because it covers people who can't boomerang (like you, outside the normal American timezones).

I feel it's very daunting as someone who gets about 150 bp a month to look at brackets of 1800+ and know I'll never be able to have my character do anything, lol. Here's what I was quoted for Sorey's abilities back in March:

-Base Artes: 1300
-Hidden Artes: 1500
-Battle Actions: 240
-Mystic Artes: 1500
-ability to chain artes: 200 points
This totals out to around 4700, not including armatization which may or may not be bought multiple times (once per seraph in game, so, 600 for Mikleo and Zaveid combined).

I'm pretty sure this was outlined based on the fact that he has a lot of skills since he's from an action RPG. I'm fine with purchasing things multiple times/upgrading them/etc. But this isn't really feasible for me to get in a year, let alone a few months. Characters who are similarly powerful probably don't have points lists looking like this because the pricing was done per skill, rather than the severity/strength of the skills listed (some of which includes stuff like being able to dodge/backstep). I mentioned I'd rather be able to pick and choose a few since there's no way Sorey could need everything, or learning it sort of over time/by level like canon.

I'm hoping that they are gating it based on the upcoming plot and not wanting characters to become godmodes too fast, and not just a flat price no matter what, because the new AC is def gonna eat into my bonus points.
Edited (adding in mod response) 2017-06-05 03:13 (UTC)
feistytrader: (3)

[personal profile] feistytrader 2017-06-03 10:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm going to partially disagree here. Not over the spirit of the thing, but over the proposed solution. I had to read this several times to understand exactly what's being proposed, and it's kind of convoluted, in my opinion.

That said, I absolutely agree that the pricing of some things is a little absurd, to say the least- 900 points is a massive investment into a regain (that's 900-1800 tags and also assuming you don't spend them on anything else.) Although I can manage a higher activity on average (I got 400 comments last month and imagine I can get that most months) and don't particularly want to rush into my regains for character development reasons, I'm still looking at 1800-2400 points for six pokemon with their base abilities only, assuming no other regains are bought and before we add in any other special abilities. If I got castmates that tagged at 150 comments a month (which is roughly the average pace, I believe?) that would be at least a year of tagging assuming no other purchases or bad months/hiatuses. And at least with the Pokémon you get the satisfaction of getting one periodically, whereas some of these body modifications are at almost a thousand points. The fact that you could potentially get a plot hint for less than some individual regains is a little ridiculous. The fact that some players won't be able to grab plot hints or put points into world regains or changes is also kind of ridiculous.

I absolutely think the pricing for some items should be reevaluated (why is a gun 30 points and a prom dress 60, for example, or why is RWBY aura stuff more expensive than elf ears,) and that nothing should be out of reach for the average player if they put in the work, much less periods of something like six months. I also understand that it shouldn't be easy for a player to just get all of their regains at once, so my proposition is some kind of gating system, where the longer you're in the game, the more discounted regains are. After two months, maybe cut prices down by 25%, after six months 50%, something like that (I'm just throwing out numbers as an example here.) That way you don't just get everything off the bat, but once you've invested time into the game it's vastly easier to purchase more expensive regains, especially for people who might have more.

(As a side note I think the AC changes and memory regain explanations were both handled really well on this post and thank you for that, mods, and I hope this can work out to make everyone happy too.)
Edited (MY WORDING I'm sorry for all the edits) 2017-06-03 22:17 (UTC)
accordance: all by <user name="feonixe"> (Default)

[personal profile] accordance 2017-06-04 12:34 am (UTC)(link)
Which part did you find hard to understand? I can draw a flow chart to make it easier.

A gating system would help later on, but the issue I wished to address was the difficulty of getting the regains at the same speed as everyone else. The gating system would come in place only after some time, and by that time other characters would have already gotten a head start over our more complicated characters. That's what I'm concerned about, since... to use me as an example, my first regain would still cost about 300+ points, which is a stretch to get in less than three months. By that time I would have been outpaced already. A discount from the very beginning would start all characters regardless of genre on equal footing.

Some of our powers have pre-requisites for being derived from other powers, so unlike Pokemon, where you can regain in any particular order, we need to regain X power first before we can have Y, even if Y has a smaller point count. That barrier still won't exactly be breached unless we receive a 80% discount, for example.
Edited 2017-06-04 00:36 (UTC)
feistytrader: (2)

[personal profile] feistytrader 2017-06-04 01:13 am (UTC)(link)
I understand that certain things are really expensive, and I said as much in my last comment. I'm proposing a gating system in addition to adjustments to making things more affordable, and never intended to say that the Pokémon were equal to physiological regains in how expensive they were- I was just using it as an example to further express the point that a lot of things are very expensive right now. The Pokémon are sort of the pre-requisites for themselves as well- if I regained Silver's Ursaring, I'd still have to purchase Fire Punch and Avalanche separately, for example. I was not at all trying to say that you don't have to deal with expensive purchases; in fact, I was trying to express the exact opposite and make a point about how people should be able to regain a reasonable amount of their things in a considerable amount of time within a setting.

That said, assuming I understood what you suggested correctly (which is two months with no discount and then one discount for 75 points a month,) I think it would be difficult to keep track of. A gated system could be an added link to the text box, while keeping track of who got their discounted bonuses could take an entire spreadsheet. More than that, having a flat rate for things essentially devalues things. You can get something for 100 points for 75 or something for 400 points for 75. You can have 300 points in a month, spend 75 points on the most expensive thing you wanted, and spend the other 225 on a second power or weapon or something.

Powers in roleplay are never going to be perfectly balanced or fair. Sure, maybe a slice of life character can pick up all of their important regains in three months, but that's also all they're going to get. I absolutely think that things should be attainable within a reasonable amount of time for the average player pace, but expecting everyone to get wildly different regains at the same clip isn't realistic.
accordance: all by <user name="feonixe"> (Default)

[personal profile] accordance 2017-06-04 01:16 am (UTC)(link)
The intention for a flat rate devalues things to something that's attainable. Sorey would have to wait months to get even base Artes back, while Silver could already have two pokemon. That's imbalance across the board, because wildly different regains come from wildly different canons. The point is not in power level but providing each player with something they can work with, and that something will be different depending on whether it's a sol canon, or a large scale JRPG canon.

The suggestion I posted was for slower players in the first place. 300 points per month is not attainable for a large portion of the players, so speed-buying regains would be out of the question. I would think we would also trust the players to be reasonable and not try to pump their character full of extreme powers. Large-scale powers are also run by the mods in the first place, so there's a check for that as well.
Edited 2017-06-04 01:18 (UTC)
notbunaga: (Default)

+1

[personal profile] notbunaga 2017-06-04 02:53 pm (UTC)(link)
As someone with a lot of powers the gating option sounds good. I'm trying not to buy back too much stuff in the beginning to pace myself, but with 3000 guns to regain (that even then I have good faith in the mods they'd allow me to bulk buy them regardless, even in small packages) a discount would really help as we get further into the plot, especially considering that's not even the most complicated thing I have to get.
fashioneebo: (Default)

[personal profile] fashioneebo 2017-06-04 04:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm in agreement with the gating option, too. It's more streamlined and can help out people who don't tag as fast, too.
accordance: all by <user name="feonixe"> (Default)

[personal profile] accordance 2017-06-05 11:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Hello mods! Thank you for your response.

A while back I asked about how long was the mod-intended time frame for a regain arc to play out, to which I was told that it would be up to individual players. Thus I was rather confused as I had apped in with the intention of clearing the regain arc within six months and move on to further character development past that arc. However the prices indicate that a full arc would definitely have at least a minimum time frame for complex characters in the time of months or even years. I would then like to ask at this juncture if the mod opinion of the 'recommended' length has changed since my first query.
Edited 2017-06-05 23:25 (UTC)
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[personal profile] accordance 2017-06-05 11:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Cool, thanks!
fashioneebo: (Default)

[personal profile] fashioneebo 2017-06-03 08:55 pm (UTC)(link)
A quick, clarification on AC!

Going with the above example, what if August AC looks like this:

Passing AC is 1 10 comment thread with Character A and another 10 comment thread with Character B.

Since Characters A and B weren't used in July's AC, but were used in June's, would one of those threads still be eligible for bonus points?